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Transcript
Hello and thank you for downloading episode 34 of the erasable podcast. This is Tim and this week I'm not joined by my favorite co hosts. In the future, from time to time, the three of us will be releasing some solo episodes interviewing people from the stationary community. And this is one of such episodes. So don't worry, I haven't taken over. I haven't muted them and gone rogue. This week I'm actually going to be talking with Mike Dudek of the Clicky Post and Dudek Modern Goods.
One thing I didn't see was when I'm supposed to come in as Dr. Claw.
So you just have to feel it. That's just something you have to learn, I guess.
It's just gotta. It's gotta be from inside.
Tonight I am joined by Mike Dudek from Clickypost and Dudek Modern Goods, who we've talked about a whole lot on the show and have been wanting to have him on for a very long time. I'm so glad to have him here. So, Mike, how's it going?
It's going well. It's going well, man. Thanks for having me. Having me on.
I've been excited to do this for a long time. Been wanting to. And we've been talking about it as the three of us as a group, wanting to have you on ever since we've started your pencil evangelism. Trying to get you hooked, get you
hooked on you guys. You guys are doing a good job. I have to tell you. Like, I may just give up pens altogether.
That was the goal. That was Johnny's goal. Well, yeah, he's our purest of the group. So I thought just a simple place to start is just for you to give us just a brief version of your, what we'd call like an origin story or how you got into this stuff. And then just a little bit about, you know, where pencils came in, but just kind of where. How you got into this community.
Sure, yeah. Well, as far as my kind of injection in the community, I guess it all starts with when did I first become somewhat obsessed with writing instruments? And I don't know if I'd say it's been terribly long, but. But there's kind of that point where you can think back and say, well, I remember caring about what pen I was using or what I was writing with. And I'd say that was probably like 10 to 12 years ago. the time I was doing some journaling or writing or things like that. And I just, I found that I started to actually notice which pen it was. And I had preferences at that time. It was more along the lines of, you know, like the pilot G2 or things like that. But. And then eventually what you kind of end up doing is you start perusing office supply stores and office supply aisles at your big box retailers. And then, you know, okay, I think there's something wrong. And
it's so exciting for a while. And then, like, when you really get into this, all of a sudden it becomes super depressing. And then like, you have that period where you're waiting to find other stuff where you're like.
It is surprising. Like at my, at my, you know, previous job for a while, I worked in. In banking and finance when I was going through college. And all of my colleagues, when I'd come back from, you know, my lunch break with a bag from Staples or something, they're like, oh, okay, what's going on? You know, they'd like, they'd come over and, well, what'd you get now? You know, and anyway, I was kind of like the local pen nerd of the group. And you do, though, I agree, you kind of get to a point where you sort of run out of things to try because you bought a three pack of everything on the shelf over the course of two years or whatever. And honestly, pencils didn't really play a huge role. I know, shocker, right? But I did enjoy kind of some mechanical pencils, you know, from time to time that I would need to use. But as far as wood case pencils, it's almost like I hadn't really used wood case pencils since, you know, elementary school, junior high. And so it'd been kind of a long time since I. Since I'd really started messing around with pencils as far as me being. To answer the question is like, how did I get injected into the community as a whole, like, kind of the writing community? I started. Eventually I got to a point where I, you know, I was following Brad and his blog and a couple of others like Mary Collis from. From the Pen cup, you know, so there was, there was. There's bloggers that I was. I was definitely reading and sort of following along with. And I decided, you know, I need an outlet myself. And so I started actually a different blog than the Clicky post. I don't even remember the name of it. And I only did, like, one post, I think, and then it fell off. But then in March of 20, when was it now, 2013 or 20? I don't even remember now, but it's been A. It's been a few years since I started the Clicky post.
Probably 2013, because I was. I started just in the beginning of. Or no, sorry, you would have been before that, because I started right at the beginning of 2013. So I was like. Right. Like it.
Yeah, it could have been. It probably was 20. It probably was 2012. Then, like, March, around spring of 2012, I started the clicky post. And the rest is kind of history, you know. So how I got sort of my first recognition, I guess, in as a blogger or as somebody in the community. I had made some gifts, some walnut pen holders. We'll probably get to this. But not actually like any of the ones that I have now in my current Dudeck Modern goods line for Brad. And I made each one and mailed them off to them because I was a listener of the other podcast, right? And when they received those, they ended up kind of making shout out to me into the clicky post. And people started following and started reading. And so it's like, that's kind of where sort of my initial injection into it was, as far as being people knowing that the blog existed. I'd say that's really kind of where the rubber hit the road, so to speak. Just been blogging since.
Nice. Well, yeah, I remember hearing when I had gotten into the Pen Addict podcast and had heard you brought up on there, and that was how I found out about you, you know, right when that happened. And then I looked and saw your. Saw your stuff. And then I think shortly after, it might have been within six months of when you were on Pen Addict or maybe even less than that, I started mine up, which is already, you know, sort of dead. But now I'm here recording the podcast. Yeah, I remember hearing just falling in love with everything on your website. Was then excited to get to know you, because that was like one of those things where you get into these communities of podcasters and bloggers in this little niche community, and there's still this slight feeling of celebrity, you know, and you're like, wait, that's kind of ridiculous. And then you reach out and people are like, hey, what's up? You know, let's talk sometime. How's it going?
No, totally. Yeah, there is kind of that aspect of it, you know, Like, I don't know. When I tell friends or people what I do as far as my side hobby, I try and keep it fairly close to the chest. Although people know. I mean, when I'm carrying around a fountain pen or I'm in a meeting at Work, and I pull out a vanishing point or something like that. They're like, oh, okay, what's wrong with this guy? So then they eventually kind of find out, and you kind of have to say, like, yeah, I write this blog and there's people that follow me. And it is kind of weird to think, like, you know, like, somebody like Brad Dowdy as a. As a pen celebrity when he's just like a normal guy, you know, and it's like. And he's. It's like we're all just down to earth people. We just are really, really, really, really obsessed with, you know, one specific thing. A little bit more than everybody else, I think, in the group. So. Yeah, but it's. It is fun. Like, the community is just awesome. Like, I can't say enough good things sometimes. I actually almost feel like I maybe don't contribute enough to it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I. Well, well, hear me out, though. No, like, it's. I do feel that way kind of, you know, like, I feel like there's people that are sometimes more active, you
know, than I am, conversing and like, interacting with one another, sorts of things.
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. It's like kind of like joining other little subgroups and stuff like that. And it's. With my work and everything, it's kind of difficult to do that, but I try and be as a part of it as I possibly can. And I enjoy when people reach out to me and ask me things or connect with me through my site or through my social media. And it's just fun. It's just fun to meet people around the world that share a common interest as we do.
Yeah, it is. That's a pretty. A pretty wild thing. I mean, I do understand what you're saying about the. As far as giving back, I have the same feeling where even though I'm doing a podcast and people apparently are listening to it and want to listen to it, I still have these moments from, like, what am I? I'm not really, like, in this. Right. Like, I feel like you just feel like a fraud all the time and you're like, well, actually, this is just a sort of fun community. We're doing this for fun. We're all here because we like it, not because we're have any sort of weird ambition, know most of us, so. But it is just amazing people.
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. And it's. It's all. We're. We're just kind of contributing to it as much as we can. So to Speak, you know, because we, you know, some of us have, you know, families or we all have probably jobs right outside of this. And so it's, it is one of those things that we dedicate quite a bit of time to, but it's, it is a hobby still. Like at its core it's still something we do for fun.
But yeah, it's a. For me, I remember it being when I decided to basically stop doing the writing arsenal and just doing this. That's. I did have. I had a moment where I was thinking, you know what? This is a hobby. And I'm going to let it be a hobby and not feel bad like, you know, for the, for the blog part of it. Just thinking, like, if I'm not going to have the time to do that, well, I still want to be involved in this and I think, you know, I need to focus on how I'm going to be involved and. Because I definitely didn't want to leave it or whatever, but just wanted to. Had to accept it being a hobby that I really, really like. So. Yeah. Well, let's get into your, your stance, your pen stands. We. I've loved your pen stands for a long time and your course custom jobs which we'll get into, such as my. I don't think ever been broadcast. I don't know if ever posted a picture of my sweet hot sauce stand that you made last year.
I also, I also dabble in hot sauce.
Yeah, I'll have to put up, I'll put a picture up that. Just to clarify, see your handiwork in that, that other corner of the Internet. But so you said how it started that you made them basically as gifts.
Well, the, the first ones, yeah. Like really, there was no initial ambition to turn it into anything like as a business. Like, my initial thoughts weren't, I'm gonna make these and it's gonna turn into, into a thing, you know, where. It's where I'm shipping these things out and like where the, the ones that I made for Brad and Mike were very one offs, you know, it's just kind of like, hey, I'm gonna make these for you. I was just out tinkering in my garage with some scrap walnut, you know, and I made them anyway. These kind of unique ones, right. I used glue and a few different things, which, which is totally different than what I do now. And as I started to get more into the blogging and into pens and buying pens more and more and more and more and more, right. I emphasize on like five mores because it turns out every more.
You have to say it louder.
Yes, more and more and more. And it's like every more equates to, you know, 20 or 30 of something. So I didn't like the idea necessarily of just throwing, you know, what I considered at the time nice pens into just like a mug or something that they're just gonna jostle around, you know, with each other. And part of that's just maybe because I'm. I have control issues, make stuff hard to find and.
No, yeah, I'm with you.
And I kind of like things to be organized as best as I can. It's not always the case, but I like things that are simple, that are functional. I don't really like things that are overly ornate in most cases. And so I ended up with maybe a foot long or 18 inch piece of walnut that's about the size of my current line. And I just decided to make some little pen holders, very proportionate, simple, cube, quote unquote, cube shapes. And which ended up, I made about a half a dozen of them, you know, out of that and had a couple for myself and gave them to a couple friends and posted about them. And then people started asking me, you know, like, well, where can we get these? You know, can we, can we, can you make these for me? And within about a couple weeks, like a month, I think less than a month after making those initial ones, I started offering them on the clicky post, you know, I had two different pen holders, I had the cube and I had the block, which was a bigger 21 hold pen holder. And now the line is, you know, over two years later, has expanded into. I think I have nine. I have to think about it, like I have nine products in my store and then I have kind of a couple little outlier products like the Notco Idea Doc that those guys keep stocked all the time. And so it's really cool. I had no idea that it would turn into something like this, but the support and demand has been just overwhelming and tremendous and I appreciate it because I like making them. And every time I send one out, I just, I feel like I'm sending somebody a little present, you know, that, that I've got to go out my shop and make. So it's very cool. Like, I'm very humbled by the support. And yeah, it totally didn't, totally didn't end up. It totally didn't start as something I thought it would turn into.
So those are usually the best things. I feel like the best startup kind of things are the Ones that start out as a, A hobby that you're. Or a passion that you're not expecting anything from. You're just. It's sort of something you, you're giving and that turns into something much bigger, which I think it's extremely deserved for being such simple, you know, these single block things, they. They're always very striking to me when I look at them. I have, I have a few that you've made for me as gifts, and I just love them. I use them every single day. They're all around my house. I have one at work, and they always make me think of like, style wise. Of the Bauhaus style. Yeah, they like really, I think of that all the time. And I, I went on a trip in college and we got to go to the Bauhaus museum, and when I first saw especially things like the Groove, the ones that have this very streamlined, clean look, I thought of like the Bauhaus chess set. Have you ever seen the Bauhaus chess set?
Yeah, I have. And oddly enough, like people have mentioned in describing kind of the pieces that they have described them as kind of a Bauhaus, and I, I didn't necessarily like, you know, I'm not a Bauhaus student necessarily or anything, but it's, I guess the thought behind it really, and the philosophy behind it is that it's form does not necessarily overbear onto function. Do you know what I mean? Like, it has to be like something can be simple yet elegant yet functional all at the same time, you know, and there's kind of that, that sort of feel to it. And, and I think the choice in material, because they're made out of a solid walnut, and the, the walnut that I have to buy is, is 12 quarter walnut is what it's called. So it's roughly. Runs about three inches thick, you know, two and three quarter, three inches thick, which is. It's not cheap walnut, you know, like, it's, it's not like a 4x4 that you go buy from Home Depot. It's, it's, it's. It's nice material that fits most aesthetics, I would probably say, you know, and it's. But the, the dark grain and the dark color, I think with the very simple design, just kind of. It makes it subtle but striking, like you said, at the same time. So I guess that's kind of what I go for is. I don't necessarily go for where I want to make it too fancy schmance, you know, because I don't. I'm not Really a fancy schmance kind of guy, but I like things that work. Yeah, yeah. Utility, but nice.
Yeah, exactly. And it's. I remember when I opened up the first one, when you made. Well, I guess my first one is what turned into being the divide. When I took that out of the box and thought, I'm going to have this for the rest of my life. Like, just when you hold it in your hand, just like, this is solid. This will never go out of style or this is never gonna look. It's not like some sort of decoration or thing that in 10 years from now, I'm like, whoa, why did I get that? What am I gonna do with this? This thing looks ridiculous now. But it. I think if this thing would be put in a time machine and would be on, you know, Hemingway's desk, it would look like it was of its time. And I think if it got sent into the future, the same thing would happen. Just because it's. It gets that from being so simple and being so clean. So I think they're.
Yeah, yeah. You can. You actually can probably take credit for the. The Divide, I would probably say, because that was one that you had originally reached out to me for kind of a custom piece, and you were very influential in kind of what you wanted. And, you know, because you were kind of playing that fence very, very well, you know, I guess you. Well, you were kind of right in the middle of kind of the. What the Divide stands for, you know, and in my. In my description of it, I say it's a. It's a place where your pens and pencils can play safely together, nicely together on your desk. Because there is, like, this. You know, there's sort of what could be a seeming feud, you know, that we've sort of created out of these inanimate things, you know, and. But, you know, so it was just kind of like a really cool idea of where you had a need specifically for. Well, I really like pencils a lot, and I'm dabbling in pens, and so I need something to carry both, you know, and so I would definitely probably give you credit for kind of the overall inspiration for that design.
Well, that was a fun interaction of text messages. I remember how excited I was when we were sending back drawings back and forth, trying to figure it out. And my first idea is that I was going to ask you for a block for pencils, and then I thought, but then I can't put pens in it, because, I mean, I was actually pens first, then to pencils. And so it was I. It just seemed like a waste. I was like, well, I guess I could do just get both. You know, maybe I'll go for. Get a block for pencils and a block for pens. And then it just seemed like started to turn into clutter, you know, potentially, like, if I had, like, too much going on and just. You helped a whole lot and figuring out something that towed the line. And I'm glad it stuck. I. I always. I'm always happy when I see your Instagram pictures and of works in progress and you've got 15, 20 things that you're in the middle of making. It always makes me happy to see a divide in there. Yes. Because I'm glad people. Other people feel the same need.
Sure. Yeah. Or like, you know, CW pencils. Right. Like, I've sent. She. She has been so kind and reaching out to me and placing orders for products that. To go into her shop, you know, so if you walk to her shop, she has some of my work kind of all over the place. And they are. Hers are specifically pencils, obviously wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to go on there and have, you know, spaces for pen. So she. Her divides are kind of pencils on both sides. So it's like, you know. Yeah, it's kind of intense pencil, but no, it is fun. Yeah, it's definitely fun to. They kind of like the demand for each piece. It's like there's no rhyme or reason to it. You know, there's. Sometimes I'll sell like, all displays. You know, the one that's kind of the. It's like the test tube holder one is kind of what I refer to
it as, like, super. Like, feels very powerhouse to me. Yeah, that one's really cool.
Or like, I'll do almost all divides or all grooves. And so it's just. It's rarely do I. Am I putting together a batch that's, you know, just only a handful of each? Like, it doesn't make, I don't know, kind of if there's something in the water or. But I appreciate it nonetheless.
But overall, which one would you say has been the most popular over time, or is it pretty even?
I would probably say the Groove. The Groove has sort of stuck as the most popular just because it seems like it is. It sort of fits the function of the majority more than maybe some of the others do. So. And it's kind of like smack in the middle of the range. And so I think it sort of fits. It fits sort of most people's needs. And so I think that's kind of where they. Where it sort of rests the block, I would say, too. You know, the 21 hole, one and the groove are probably the two most popular ones, I would probably say.
I think that groove is. I think I'm partial to the vibe and I'm excited about the groove as well. I think we had worked together to make a custom groove that did pencils and pens kind of side by side, which is kind of like a mini divide or something like that. I think that there's something about that, like how perfect it is that you can have the notebooks, everything side by side. And this kind of segues into what I wanted to talk about today as kind of a big main topic, along with your kind of pencil use and stuff like that, which I think will come along the way. But you. One thing I liked about that design is that it's kind of minimalizing things and getting things down to the. Your favorites, like just enough space to do to have the things that you like to use the most that you don't have. There are some scenarios where you need, you know, I have a pen stand back there that I keep 1012. I forget how many holds, but 1012 pens in right there. But sometimes at your desk, you need something in front of you that just holds the essentials that are right there so you can get stuff done. So you don't have 15 pens in front of you, and you're like, well, I could use that one, or I could use this one, or what color ink does that have in it now? Or is this pen too soft or whatever? And so providentially or something, you came out with this post where you were talking about the idea of, you know, is it just a pen? And we. What does it mean for us to kind of always be looking for more? So would you just talk a little bit about that post? Kind of give a little Cliff Notes version of just kind of what you're going for in that.
Yeah, it's something I've been thinking about a lot over the past several months. And just the kind of idea of. There's lots of cliches that you could. You could put into it of, you know, less is more, you know, that kind of thing. And really the kind of point of that post of kind of the title of it is in quotes. It's just a Pen. And what I was kind of getting at with that was at some point, I mean, to other people, right, that aren't fanatical about writing instruments or pens or pencils, they'll see, you know, a pen is just a pen. Like, they don't. They don't. There's not really, like anything. It doesn't. It doesn't do anything for them. You know, it does. Like, they don't see like a, you know, like a palomino blackwing and like, their heart starts to flutter. Right? You know, I mean, there's none of that going on.
If it marks the page, then it
does its job, right? Yeah, it's. It's. You know, that pen I stole from the hotel works just fine. You know, it's like I don't really care about it. If I lose it, it's not a big deal. You know, it's. It's kind of that point of where it's like, I think with. With everything, really anything you can have. I guess what I was getting at with this post is over time, you can kind of consume too much. You know, like, if I love pens or I love pencils or I love paper or, you know, know, whatever calligraphy, and I'm kind of keeping it in the writing realm, you know, I can love that stuff and I can, you know, scour the Internet and I can read blog posts and I can, you know, be on newsletters for retailers for that. When those new things come out, I know right about it, right? You know, like, I know right away that that's there. And, you know, I get prompted, or I'm saying I as in generalizing, but, you know, people get. People, you know, they get to a point where it's like, I need to have more and more and more and more and more. You know, I need to try a new fountain pen, or I'll buy a pen and only use it. I'll ink it once, and then I'm ready to move on, to try the next thing. Do you know what I mean? Or like, with pencils, like, how many pencils did people run to the end? Do you know what I mean? Like, where you just sharpen it to where it's no longer you usable. Do you know what I mean? Like, how often does that actually happen? I would say when I was using, like office supply pens, quote unquote, you know, like when I'd go to Staples or places like that, I ran into that problem to where I was always kind of seeking that new thing. And what would end up happen is, like, I would never run a pen dry, and that sounds super crazy, you know what I mean? But I would buy a pen and I would never run out of ink with it because I was always picking up the next one. Do you know what I mean?
I have had that, too. Where you're like, you almost get to the point where you're craving, getting to the end. You're like, I want to just finish one of these.
But if you have so much, if you have an abundance, like, if you always keep buying, always keep consuming, you're always reaching for that new thing. When do you ever have time to slow down and think about what it is that you really like or what you care about? And so I guess the point of that is, can eventually you at your mindset shift to where it's like, you have so much and you've. You've bought so much, or you have so much, you just have, like, you know, drawers of pens or pencils or to where it's like, do you almost end up eventually getting to the point to where you're, like, overwhelmed by the quantity and the magnitude of it, and you just are like, you almost come to despise it because now it's just. It's just excess stuff that I'm never gonna get a chance to use all of it. Do you know what I mean? So it's like you have. It's like you have everything you could possibly want to enjoy, but it's hard for you to enjoy any of it because it's so much, I don't know,
like, thorn, oak and shield, basically, is what you're saying.
Pretty much. Yeah.
Basically, like, you've got all this gold and you can't even appreciate it. You just want more, don't want to share it.
Right, right, right. Yeah, totally. Like that.
We just turn into the Hobbit. Yeah. Yeah. I, I trying to remember where this had come up recently, but I. I know we talked about it with Cody Williams on the last episode. We were talking about this idea of the journey versus the solution. Like that sometimes, like, you find a new pen or something and like, like you're talking about or a new pencil, and you try it out and you're like, oh, that's cool. And then you just kind of put it aside, and then you move on to the next thing. And so. So that could be described for some people, and some people like that. You know, some people like to do things like that, and they don't mind just amassing things and playing with stuff constantly. We were calling that kind of like the journey. And then there's the idea of the solution, which is like, you're trying to find the one that you're going to use, and it's going to help you get stuff done. Those sort of. That conversation and then your post and this conversation, it's all kind of mixing together in my head right now because I think it's all in the same kind of in the same vein.
Well, it's kind of talking about the same kind of side of the coin, but just from different angles. You know what I mean? It's like, I like that the idea of the journey is, well, I'm trying to try everything and just experience it as I go and not necessarily become attached to anything, to any one particular thing. Although along the way, I might enjoy some things more than others and they might stick for maybe a slightly longer period versus, you know, I'm actually seeking to find that thing that brings me the most enjoyment, you know, and like, I'll stick with that for a longer period of time and try and get more satisfaction out of it. So. No, I totally, totally agree. And that's. That's kind of like. I guess that was like. The point of the post is, you know, if you're. If you're struggling or sort of starting to feel like you're overwhelmed with how much you have. I know it's like, sounds like such a bad problem to have, right? Like, oh, man, you have so much, you can't enjoy it. But I think it could be with anything, if you feel like you have too much and you're losing sort of that savor of enjoying it, maybe try and scale it back and really focus on the things that you care about.
I personally got to that point pretty recently, I think in the last couple months. And that was what I've talked about before. But I just gotten to the point where I was tired of having choices. I was tired of, like, all these things just kind of floating around. I mean, I still have cups full of pens, pencils and pens in front of me, and I have stands and stuff. But I got to a point where I was like, that's enough. I know what I like, and nothing has dethroned this. And so I'm going to treat it like that's the one that I want to use and sold pens, sold things in order to buy a huge amount of the pencil that I like. And then. And even with this custom groove we were just talking about, that's going to have three pencils, three pens, as soon as that sort of happened, that design was going through that you're gonna be able to make that. I knew exactly what was going to go in it. And I was very satisfied to know that I know exactly what I'd put in that. That'll be like my daily. That's the stuff that I use all the time. Which is not to say that you don't. You can't keep trying other things. I guess the other option is that if you come across something down the road, you know, potentially it'll dethrone something else. But as long as. For me, it just doesn't work to just be throwing money at it, just, you know, constantly. And if I don't have a reason to replace it or find something better, then why spend all that brain power on the search?
Well, part of it, too, is from my perspective, I mean, writing the blog and consistently kind of sticking with the blog, you know what I mean? I know that you had mentioned that kind of the blog. This has sort of become your outlet for your hobby and your passion and not necessarily the blog. And I think that totally makes sense, and it's totally awesome. So with the blog, there's kind of an aspect of. You have to create new content on the blog, and you have to. So that requires either getting new things sent to you by people or spending a good amount of money on trying new things. I totally can say that that's true.
Pencils was a godsend for that for me.
I know. Yeah. It's like, I look at. And this is a common thread, you know, it's like it's sort of the cheapest way you can go with writing instruments, but where you can go buy, you know, even like buying a dozen black wings is what, like, 20 bucks? And it's like, you know, how much satisfaction are you going to get out of a dozen of those versus, like, you know, what can you get for $20 in a pen? It's the cost, you know, quantity, value. There is harder to. Harder to reach with pens, but. Right.
Yeah, there's. And you're talking about the connection of pens and pencils. We had talked about this a little bit briefly, but it is sort of interesting that fountain pens and pencils we've created, I think, fictionally just for the fun of it in a lot of ways, a sort of warring sides, you know, or like the pens versus pencil, but that's not really the case. I think there are a whole lot of people that listen to our podcast that read your blog that are people who are just interested in both. Just kind of depends on the situation. And I think. I mean, I know I'll admit to you, since Andy and Johnny aren't here, I know that on our Facebook Group, which we have about 600 people in this Facebook group. A lot of people talk about it on there and say, I'm actually more of a pen guy, but I just come here because I like pencils and I just wanted to talk about them or he hear what you had to say. So I know that there seems to be like a big connection with that. So, I mean, why do you think they go hand in hand?
Well, it's a really good point. You know, honestly, my thoughts. Are they really so different in today's world? Is a pen and a pencil or I mean, a wood case pencil and a fountain pen? Who in their right minds today uses them? Right? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is it that draws us to either? And I would actually put them both. Like you said, we kind of put them in these feuding categories just for fun. I think we mostly do that. But some people are maybe a little more zealous than others, but. Not here. Not here. Dr. Claw. Yeah, but are they really very different in sort of the mentality of the person that uses them? Like, because both of them, if you really strip it down and put them through, you know, kind of a filter, like they're kind of old fashioned ways of doing things.
Kind of high maintenance.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like for a pencil, I have to.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
As a pencil, I have to. I have to carry around a sharpener and I have to get, you know, graphite everywhere and I have to get shavings and I have to, I have to mentally think like, well, what am I going to do with the shavings? I'm going to leave the house with my coom magnesium and my pencil and like, okay, well, if I got to sharpen, I got to go find a trash can or a bush or something. And then with a fountain pen, it's like, well, is it going to run out of ink? Did I ink it up this morning? Is it going to work on the right paper? It's like, so there's all of these things, these variables. You have to. We put ourselves through it, to be honest with you. You know, it's like I could get a cheat ballpoint and it would work, or not use writing at all and just use technology. But we choose to do that. You know, what is it about it that makes us want to experience? Maybe I'm not going to call them like the finer things, but they kind of are. You know, I think it's like they kind of take you back to a time that was a little Simpler, you know? Like, I know that with pencils, particularly, like, I haven't really been. Been. I'm trying to get myself more into using pencils just because I. I feel that that rabbit hole can go just as deep as pens.
Yeah.
And when I, you know, when I hear you guys talk about pencils and you guys, you know, do your pencil of the week or pencil of the month or whatever you do, and you put a grade on it. Like, for me, I'm like, it. I don't even feel qualified to talk about why it would have a grade at this point. But there's something about them that intrigues me, you know, and there's all these different colors and different brands and different lead hardness.
Yeah.
Lead grades and stuff. I know that when I. I don't chew on pencils, but I know that when I write with them, I tend to like. And I'm totally, like, admitting a lot here. Like, I'll just be sitting there thinking, and I'll just, like, smell the pencil. Like, I'll just put it on my top lip and just kind of take a little whiff and, you know, just soak in those cedar vapors or whatever. And, you know, it's just. It kind of takes you back to, like, there's. There's sensory triggers that come from using them. Like, it takes you back to, like, second grade when you're learning to print or using the crank pencil sharpener that loud. Like, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah in the corner when somebody's taking a test or something, you know, and it's. I don't know, you remember those things. And I don't know if I'm totally making sense, but totally making sense.
I think that's right at the heart of why these are kind of side by side. I like your description of, like, sharpening things. That's the. That's the struggle with pencils on that side, for sure. Is carrying a sharpener around with you. What am I going to do with these shavings? And we have conversations about carrying Altoid tins around to capture them so that you can either throw them away or take them home and save them. If you're Johnny, that was a shot at Johnny. I do it too. It's a good way to start a fire.
But anyways, I have on my desk right now, actually, the way that I do it on my desk is I have. I posted pictures of it before. But I thank Dan from Keras Customs kind of for the idea, but he was talking about, like, I Don't smoke, you know. But he was talking about kind of like, the idea. I really do like the idea of, like, vintage ashtrays. And because they're, you know, you don't really use them anymore. Do you know what I mean? But they're oftentimes these, like, works of art or pieces of history. And so I ended up going on ebay like a total goob. And I really like kind of the art deco and kind of like the 1930s as far as design, like the 1939 World's Fair. And so I went and found myself a brass. It's like a solid brass 1939 World's Fair, you know, original, like. Like ashtray to put on my desk so that when I sharpen my pencil, I. That's where my shavings go. And then I have, like, a jam jar that I put the shavings in rather than, like, a trash can. But it's interesting.
Yeah, it's. You have to find a. Find a solution. And in the fountain pens. Yes, about the same. I love when J. Robert Lennon was on the Pen Addict, and he was talking about, like, I think it was on the pentacle. He's talking about his students. He had a student come to his office, and he was writing with a fountain pen. And the student said, oh, you write with fountain pen. How do you keep from getting ink on your hands? And his answer was, you don't. So just like that, and also having to deal with shavings people, I can totally see why people would just be like, that doesn't make sense. I don't understand. Why would you do that to yourself? But. But we do.
It's crazy, but we love it.
Yeah. Now, I. I don't know how long it was ago it was that I sent you this, but I thought we could kind of finish by talking about pencils that you've used and that you like and maybe in this totally being, you know, someone who's figuring it out and, you know, trying a bunch of different things, what do you notice? I guess that's where we can start with for you at this point. What do you look for in a pencil? Like, when or what do you not look for? Like, which. What kinds of things? When you try it, you're like, no,
I don't want to use it.
Yeah.
Part of me, I don't know if I like. I'm kind of an aesthetic snob a little bit, but for some reason, I'm attracted to pencils that look good, you know? And, like, I really like I think I'm attracted to pencils that. It sounds so weird. Attracted. Using the word attracted as a project. But I look for kind of the pencils that don't have an eraser on them. Like, they're kind of the solid or they're dipped ends, you know, it just. I feel like it's a lot cleaner. I don't ever. Even if I write with a pencil that has an eraser, I generally don't erase. I just cross out or just skip over it most of the time. Not because I don't make mistakes. You know, I'm not trying to be an arrogant jerk here, because I pretty much am Mr. Perfect. But so those kind of, like, appeal to me from an aesthetic standpoint with regard to kind of like lead grade. If a pencil writes too light, like kind of an h, even many HBs are. I feel a little bit too light for kind of my preferences. I like a darker sort of softer line. So I would go for, you know, something that's like a B2B. Like, recently I've been using. Oh, man, I don't even remember the name of it, but it's like a Staedtler 2B. The kind of blue. And it's like a blue.
Mars. The Mars Lumograph.
Yeah, yeah. Mars Lumograph. Yeah. I've been using recently a 2B of that. I have that at my desk at work, and I've been kind of taking notes and drawing up plans and things like that with that. But at home, I found myself using. Recently you sent me one, actually, that. The crown d' Ache Swiss wood.
Yeah.
Maybe it's the dark wood of it, you know, like, kind of meshing a little bit with, like, kind of my. My love for walnut, you know, But a block.
A pencil block filled of just all caran dache Swisswoods. Like, what that would look like.
They're pricey, though. I mean, for a pencil, they're like 450, you know, as expensive as it gets for. For pencils. Yeah, I mean, they look like they should be expensive. I wish they maybe made some alternate lead grades. Like, maybe. I mean, it writes for an hb. I think it writes smooth enough and dark enough for what I appreciate.
Heavy helps, that.
Yeah. Yep, yep. But I think if they had, like, a 2B, I'd probably, like. That would be maybe a perfect combo. I really like the. Oh, Tombow Mono one hundreds. Those are probably, like. I don't know. I'd say if there is a sexiest pencil around. That is probably. It just seems like the one, you know, that just sort of looks good. I don't like the wopex.
Like it's a tuxedo or something.
Yeah, yeah. Like it looks. I don't know, it's a little flashy bond of pencils. It kind of is. Yeah. I don't like the wopex to Johnny's sugar. And I'm sure I just. I find that it writes. It's not. It's not terrible. But I don't know, sometimes I feel like it doesn't write. It's. It's a little too hard.
Yeah.
I feel for me. And the sort of like this sort of bleached colored sort of fake wood.
Yeah, the wood flower weirdness. Yeah.
Yeah. It's. It's. I don't know, it's a little creepy. It's kind of.
I'm with you. I'm with you.
Yeah.
We can talk candidly since Johnny's, but I'm with you. I have moments where I'm like, oh, this is interesting and I'm going to use it. And then it doesn't last long usually.
Yeah.
I find a case from like, oh, well, it sort of works here. But then I have that feeling of why would I want to use this if it just sort of works in one place, like with one type of paper that just gets finicky and then like, well, I'm not going to use that. I'll go back to my old standby.
But I do also like certain, like non lacquered, I guess, like kind of like the forest choice or like Dixon made do like the. They just have like a. Is it the renew? Is that the one?
That's the new one? Yeah.
Mm. And it has the. It has a little. I'm looking at one right now. And it has a little recycle symbol. The one.
Yes.
Or is that a different one?
Because there was the enviro stick, which was like a recycled one as well, but it was one of those that was made of processed wood almost. Not quite like a wo pex. Not quite that much. But it was basically ground up and then formed into a pencil. And then the renews, the new recycled one, which is made of leftover cedar slats, I guess. And those are great. Those are. That's. That's probably one of the best. I feel like that's one of the best things you can buy, like at a Target or something like that.
I think I. I saw them And I bought two boxes compulsively, like six months ago. And you spent what, $4 and 75 cents or something. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't too bad. Yeah. Then from like Caroline's. But I. I've gone on her site and bought some vintage pencils. And I bought them mostly just kind of for fun, but I don't necessarily feel like I. There's a couple of them I've tried and they're like really hard grade and like really light. And so they didn't really kind of do it for me. But I got a couple of like older Dixons with non. Like the Federals. Like the. I'm just looking at them anyway. There's different things that I guess make me want to buy a pencil. I like ones that look nice and the lacquer is really well done.
These vintage pencils are a huge. A huge rabbit hole that I've not let myself go down. But I mean, when you think about pen. Like vintage pens is a thing, but pencils, I mean, these companies would have hundreds of different pencils. You know, they were like constantly coming out with different models, like all the time. And I mean, there's like kind of. Well, there could be sort of an endless rabbit hole there of stuff you're going to go down into. The only problem is that people don't tend to find old fountain pens and throw them in the trash like they do when they find old pencils. So I guess they.
Yeah, well, I mean, because if the erasers no good, you know, they're kind of like, oh, I guess it's pointless now, you know, and you're talking about
these natural finish pencils. And that is. I think a lot of people are in that camp and I am very much included. And I know Johnny is, and I think. And I know Andy likes them too. But me and Johnny especially enjoy the. The naked pencils and those. And there's a lot. There are a lot of people who feel the same way. And you know that there's something about that that I think is really interesting, that people are so drawn to that because it is. As far as writing instruments go, it is the most kind of minimal thing. You know, you don't even have, besides the stamping or whatever. Like, there's not. It's not painted. It's just these. I love that you can look at it and say, I know, okay, that's wood. That is graphite mixed with clay or wax. That's a little sheet of aluminum, and that's rubber. I know everything that's in my hand right now. It's not some Weird plastic polymer. It's not, you know, some alloy metal. I. There's nothing there that I don't understand, which is kind of, Kind of a fascinating thing. I think a lot of people get
it. It feels different, too, in your hand. Like, the texture, the, like, you know, it kind of feels maybe a little rough sometimes, like, because it's, it doesn't have, like, a clear coat on it or it doesn't have paint on it or lacquer on it. And so it's like you're kind of. Yeah, it's like I'm writing with a stick. Like, literally writing with a stick.
Yeah. I love Andy's talk about, like, why pencils are great, and he says it goes back to cavemen with a charred stick writing on a wall. Yeah. But we can, we can bring this back to our very obvious and heated battle between pens and pencils and say that, you know, technically, pencils are the new technology. So pencils have only been around, you know, 152 or several. A few hundred years. Pens have been around for, like, a thousand.
So in one way or another.
Yes, in some fashion. Yeah. Remember reading that. James Ward's book, James Ward's book, Perfection of the Paperclip. He talks about the history of the pen and about these fountain pens that are being made, like, a thousand years ago for these kings and stuff. It's super interesting. And then you realize that pencils didn't come around until way, way, way, way later, which was kind of shocking to me, but I guess made sense. But that just basically means that pencils are better. I just wanted to get out of
the way before we see. Yeah, I'm, you know, slowly but surely, I'm sure I'll be converted to this side. So. But what I've been trying to do, like, because it's, I have to, I have to admit, like, I have to find, like, I have to kind of force myself to use pencils. Like, I know that seems maybe strange or something like that with. It's being something that I. That intrigues me or interests me, you know, I have to, I have to kind of, like, sort of force myself not to bring a pen to work or not to carry a pen with me. So that way I have to. I have to use a pencil, you know, and, like, I recently had, I think I had something like 15 or 16 fountain pens inked up at once. And I got to that point, right? I'm like, okay, I, I, I've reached the point of abundance here in, in pens inked up and it's like, I can't. I can't use all these. So what I had to do is I had to. I cleaned every pen out that I had. And so I think now I have three inked up. But now it's like I've kind of forced myself to limit my options so that then I can sort of focus on other things, like. Like using pencils. And so.
And, you know, for the record, it'd be totally fine if you end up not liking pencils, but, you know, we'd still be friends and everything. It just might not be. Might not be practical for you, but it's. I do. I admire that, like, intentional ness of going about it, because I think I. When I first started getting into good pencils, I did kind of the same thing. I remember having times where I had Brass Town or something and I had six pens in it, and I actually would end up not taking the Brass Town, so that I only had one pen, just the pencils that I wanted to be trying out with me just to kind of keep things simple for a couple days, just.
And it.
I guess it paid off, or whatever you want to call it, or I paid out, I guess, is what it really turned into. More money.
Well, how did you, like. I guess. What was it about the pencils that I'm like, I'm shifting the conversation over here, right? Like, what is it that made you, like, what was it about the. Like, that shift to pencils? Like, how did you, like, did it. Did you just find that you enjoyed them more? Did you find that it was. Did you have to go through any of that kind of forcing yourself to use them, to try them a little bit?
Yeah. It started basically because of. It kind of all goes back to John Steinbeck and the Blackwing, like, finding out about that, because I'm big John Steinbeck fan. Found about that, found out about the Blackwing, ended up finding the Palomino, and just was so intrigued by that. Just sort of loved the story and loved that my favorite author used pencils. And I tried them. And of course, as soon as I tried it, I was like, oh, man, this thing's great. You know, these are really nice. This is different. This is not normal pencil. Like, what I would have associated with a pencil up until now. I mean, I remember when I first started getting into this little community, just reading stuff and seeing Anna's website, and she would write about pencils every once in a while, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, because I was only thinking pens, really. And then Sort of got into a few pencils and enjoyed them, but was still mostly using pens. And I think I had some sort of moment where I was annoyed with pension for some reason, like with fountain pens, like some having some sort of problem or a scratchy nib or spilling ink or, I don't know, just something like that. It's kind of said almost had like a little fit, you know, not really, but just like, you know what? I'm just gonna use a pencil to do this. If Steinbeck can do it, I can do it. And I think at that moment I did kind of a little more intentionally decide I'm gonna kind of go for the this and try it out and see if this works for me. And I just did. It felt right. I enjoyed sharpening. I liked the pace of writing with a pencil and stopping to sharpen. It just all kind of fit my workflow. And with writing, creative writing kinds of things, I enjoyed doing it in a very basic, no frills way. Didn't have to think about the color of the ink, didn't have to think about the paper at all. I just knew that if I was writing something, I would not get annoyed if I just picked up a pencil, had a sharpener and had any, you know, any type of paper in front of me. So I think it just kind of stuck because of that. But yeah, I did. There was a little bit of intentionality with just sticking to it for a long time. But here I am.
The rest is history. Yeah.
Mike, it's been awesome having you on. I really appreciate you taking some time out of your. Your evening this weekend to talk to me. I've been looking forward to doing this for a long time, and I'm glad it worked out. Can you tell people where to find you on the Internet?
Yeah, sure. And it's been a pleasure, so thank you. I appreciate you having me on. And I'm excited to kind of go down this rabbit hole a little bit more. Like, I have a. Literally, I'm at my desk right now, and I. I don't feel like I'm at that point of abundance with pencils yet, but I have probably, you know, 30 or 40 different. And thanks to you, you know, you've sent me little care packages from time to time, and so I have a lot of ground to cover, but where people can find me, obviously I have.
That leads me to one last question that I'm just curious about that I meant to ask, because you're talking about all those pencils. Which ones? From the ones that I've sent you or that you've bought singles of. Have you gone out and bought bulk or have you bought any yet? Just curious. Like ones that you've like.
Well, I've bought some. I bought some. Some more black wings.
Which one?
Just the regular Blackwing.
Okay, cool.
Yep. And then I bought a box, like a bulk box of golden bears. So I have a lot of golden bears.
You teamed up on that one because. Yeah, I got, I got a portion of that box that was. I forgot.
Yeah. So I like the golden bear. I have a couple of those out in my shop even. I usually use mechanical pencils in the shop, but there's times I just switch back over to the Goldberry. So I like those. Those are kind of a well rounded kind of all around just good pencil.
So
I bought a few more of the Tombow mono one hundreds and different lead grades to try them out and see what I liked the most. So those are the ones I think I've again, I have a lot of of pencils to go through and so to say I like have bought more, I probably would need to hold off for a little bit until I get through some of these.
I'll ask you again next summer.
Yeah, yeah. When they're completely out. All right.
Okay. So now tell us where we can find you on the Internet.
Yeah, I write the clickypost, which is clickypost.com or actually you could go to theclickypost.com and it will redirect. So if you've heard Mike Hurley harass Brad. Enough about that. They ended up harassing me enough about that too. So for the blog you can do. Yeah, clickypost.com I'm on Instagram under the clickypost at Clickypost for my business. For the Dudeck modern goods it's duduckmoderngoods.com and I also have a Dudeck Modern Goods Instagram feed as well. And then I'm on Twitter ickypost. Not as active on Twitter because I'm not really sure what to say all the time on Twitter. But I am there if you wanted to follow me.
So I am Tim Wasem. You can follow me on Twitter Imwassum on Instagram timothywasom. And then you can find me here at eraceable and you can follow Eraceable on Twitter raceablepodcast. We don't have Twitter account or sorry, we don't have an Instagram account. But you can always use the erasablepodcast to help us compile good pencil photos together. The show notes for this episode will be@ erasable us 34. And we encourage you to rate and review the podcast on itunes or recommend it on Overcast or wherever it is that you listen to the podcast because it just helps us to hear from people. We like to hear from people people and like to hear what we can do better. So we really encourage you to do that. We really, really appreciate it. So we thank you for listening to this episode of racebool, and Johnny and Andy and I will be back all together in just a week or two. Thanks, Mike.
Yeah, thank. You.
The intro music for the Erasable Podcast is graciously provided by this Mountain, a collaborative folk rock band from Johnson City, Tennessee. You can check out their music at www.thismountainband.com. This has happened before.