Scribe

That's it. Hop on the Creativity train.

Hey, what's up guys? Looking forward. This is number three.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure. Well, I'll start. My name is Joey Caphone and I guess you could say I'm an entrepreneur. And now a newly minted Author. As Andy mentioned, I founded Baron Fig. Man, that was way back in 2013, so we're going on 10 years and it's a company that makes tools to help you do your best thinking. Notebooks, pens, pencils, of course. And recently I wrote the Laws of Creativity, a book that teaches you how to master your ideas. So under the hood, I'm a designer and I've designed and art directed over 100 products at this point from zero to launch. In a nutshell, between Baron Fig and the Laws of creativity, my work focuses on, on helping people turn their ideas into reality.

Yeah, that's a really cool way to put it actually. Full stack creativity. Full stack in the front end of

That's it. I'm thinking about what the SQL is. I got to mess it up.

Yeah.

Like the thought, yeah, this, I think you guys are going to like this because this is, there's a lot of writing involved back. I mean I've been recording notes in my, on my phone, in notebooks for the last 10 to 15 years probably. And I knew that I wanted to write the book, but I figured I'd write it, you know, when I'm older. And so starting in my early twenties actually I would just take notes and you know, I accrued a whole lot of thoughts. So then the pandemic happened and of course it shook up all our lives. What was it again? What was that thing? Was it like three, two and a half years that just didn't happen? That's what it feels like. So I'm sitting at the kitchen counter with my wife Ariana, and she is listening to me go on about this book I'm going to write about creativity. And she stops me Mid sentence. And she says, dude, it's time to write the book. We're stuck at home. It's now or never. I was like, oh, my goodness, you're right. And been thinking about it so long that I guess, you know, I'm in my mid-30s now and it kind of is the time to write this, you know, my first book. And so the reason I even wanted to write it at all is because I think creativity is extremely important and people have it all wrong. Maybe you guys can see this in your own life, but people think creativity is something that only professionals have, but it's not. It frustrates me because whenever I ask people if they're creative, the answer is almost always no. Do you guys see that or is it different in your circles?

Yeah.

In terms, just so listeners probably want to hear this, NASA did a study and found 98% of kids are at the creative genius level at age five.

But by age, well, adulthood, which they said was age 30 ish, only 2% of adults rank as high.

Kids are genius, creative geniuses. And then adults almost guarantee to lose it. And so the cornerstone of the book is why and how can I not really teach you how to do it, but remind you what you already knew as a kid?

Yeah, totally. When you go from 98% to 2%, that is a process that's almost intentionally created.

It's so effective, it's pretty much a near guarantee.

It's 96% change. And so I quickly, you know, hypothesized, and then I think I proved that if there's a guaranteed process for eliminating it, there must be a guaranteed process for gaining it back. And, you know, I went to explore that because when I was writing this book, every time I told someone, they would be like, oh, dude, can you teach me the magic? And I was always like, no.

Magic.

It's like, you know what? We'll try as seen on tv. And it's like, absolutely not. This is. I don't look at creativity as anything other, Anything more special than basketball or accounting or construction. Like, it's a process and you learn it.

Here's. I'll drop this because I think you guys, we were talking earlier, and I think you guys have been up to this point in the book where I kind of draw a comparison that helps a lot of people understand where I'm coming from. So the book's divided into three parts. Mindset, process and foundation. Basically. Sorry, foundation, which is your mindset. Yep. Process and excellence. And so the middle chunk is really like, how to do the creative process.

So think about it this way. I think this is the beginning of the part 2. There are tens of thousands of cities and towns in the world, and the three of us have almost assuredly not been to, you know, even 2% of them. But if we were to list any one of them, all three of us would know how to get there, because you'd know you would hop on a plane and use a map and roads and you. All sorts of transportation, and you'd get there by following signs and whatnot. Think of creativity as the same thing, right. Where you're following this process and you don't know the destination, what it's going to be like, but it can get you there every time.

That's it. Hop on the Creativity Train.

Yeah. Is this someone. Are you saying someone who is, like, having writer's block or someone who is unhappy with their life and wants to do something creative but doesn't think they can?

Okay.

Yeah. I'd start with the na. I. I start with the NASA fact because I think it gives people a belief in themselves that, wow, you know what? I was this way and I can be this way again. And I think that's an important thing to realize. And originally I was telling Andy, before the sh. We started recording, I didn't intend for the book to be so thick. I was just really going to do how to create from start to finish that the middle part of the book. And when I was interviewing people, Tim, like you're mentioning, that were not so confident creatively, I realized that the issue that they needed to overcome, the challenges that they were facing were not how to do it, but how to think about what creativity even is. So then it's like this whole beginning section about thinking is seminal to actually doing anything. And so the first step is accepting. I mean, it's chapter one. You guys have both read it. It's accepting you're weird. Right. And how do you guys remember how we sort of. I broke it down in terms of a practical explanation of what weird could be and how it could be understood and leveraged.

Yeah. There's this weird thing that we do as human beings where inside of our bubbles, inside of the world that we exist in every day, we do not appreciate people deviating from the norm. And, you know, Maybe the three of us might be a little different. But let's think back to when we were in grammar school or something, high school. We've all been there where we've, like, said, oh, man, that's the weird kid. Or, you know, some people in the office will be like, yo, that's the weird one. You know, don't eat lunch, the weird one. Or something. And in my mind, weird just means you're different, which means you're, you know, original, which means you're unique. And actually, those people, I think, are brave for letting their differences show rather than trying to cover it up.

Yeah, same. I mean, I just found all the other weird kids. And then when we got together and,

Well, I think the idea is, number one, is someone who's either creative or not creative. Either way can become more creative. And by the time you're done reading, I hope you understand it well enough, whether it's something you do regularly or something you introduce into your life, that you can actually command more opportunities and more attention and make more money at work. These are all proven. That's Luigi in the background.

Ultimately, more freedom in your everyday life when you learn how to harness your ideas. You said hello back. And turn them into something that works for you.

And you have more fun.

He didn't know what he was doing.

Yeah. Even now, all these years later and all these products later, I still, when I sit down to make something, I'm thinking to myself, man, this is the time. This is the final time I'm gonna fail. Like, this is it. I'm gonna be discovered.

Yeah. I think when people see professionals or, you know, people who do this and make money on it, whatever we want to call them, when we others see those people and, you know, confidently moving forth, they think, oh man, you know, they figured out something and they've eradicated that fear. And it's actually not true at all. It's more like we get better at handling the fear and managing it, but it never goes away. Do you guys feel the same on that?

Yeah. Did you fear and now it's right. Yeah. Did you feel that fear throughout? Or were you able to tuck it away somehow at each stage of the

When you got that feedback, did you at some point have to say, okay, I'm hearing some things that I disagree with. I'm not going to change that, but I will change these other things.

I had a. I had a different experience where all of the. I initially was interviewing very successful creatives in New York City. I started, and I quickly realized that they did not like what I was doing. I very often was, there's no laws to creativity. Like, how, you know, how dare you try to bottle this up? This is an art.

And, you know, they were very experienced. I want to say it was sort of old ways of thinking. Not to say that it's correlated with age, because it's not there Were some incredible, you know, people of all ages supporting it. But generally, actually overwhelmingly, the thought, the sentiment was, that's ridiculous. You can't possibly write a book like that about creativity.

Right? Yeah. It is magic. You can't understand it, you can't teach it.

And that's absurd. That's absurd.

Yes. And I think, you know, it's like a. It's like a cool kids club and they want, you know, they. People make a lot of money off creativity and teaching creativity and teaching it in a way in which it's not actually being taught, but it's upholding the mystery. There's. I don't, I won't name names, but there's a create quote unquote creativity expert out there that is constantly telling people that it's magic and mysterious and kind of like on one hand selling it as this incredible thing, but on the other hand selling it as you can't quite understand it. And so just keep coming to me to help you sort of thing. And I don't believe in that at all.

I knew you guys would ask about that. Of course. And it contains the law of Ideation. So just to quickly tell your listeners, essentially every chapter is a law. There's 39 of them. Starts out with the law briefly, then a story that is first to entertain and then to inform. Then I break it down and share some principles after. So for this one, sketch it out. The law of ideation says, take your idea and make it real. No matter how rough. The final step is only attainable by taking the first step. Once you have something to look at and adjust, you can begin the journey towards completion.

Yeah. The whole chapter is about sketch it out. Doesn't necessarily mean draw. It means, like, take an idea and make it real.

Yeah. There's three methods I use, you know, to bring your ideas out of your head that I list in this chapters of essentially drawing, writing, and crafting. You know, visual, verbal, and physical. And it could, you know, what you choose depends on how you think or what the project needs or whatever. But. Yeah. When the confidant was born. Well, back in the day, I was trying to communicate to these two guys I was collaborating with Adam and Scott, and they just didn't understand. So I ran to the art shop and I bought some painting canvas, and I cut it all up and I taped it with masking tape to a notebook I bought at, like, CVS or something. And the next time I saw them. Cause we met weekly, I tossed it on the table, and immediately they were. They were converted into understanding what I was trying to do. This was a clothbound notebook, which was different, you know, in 2013 for sure, and right away. So I had made my idea rough and tangible, and we could pass it on. And that's. Once you do that. Yeah, you know, you're off to the races.

Yeah.

Yeah, thanks. You know, I haven't, I hadn't even thought about that at all. Appreciate it. Yeah.

Like, yeah, it was. Well the, especially the following one where I actually built a notebook from scratch that was like a legit prototype.

What the first one was somewhere in, in the middle. I guess it was an ultra crappy prototype.

For sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I think people who are not so familiar with this, you guys are, if you write, you know, to just get the first draft out and you know, you could fix it later. But what we see quite often is people who are not familiar tend to think that it needs to come out the first time perfect and beautiful. And what's. Again, this is a little bit about

Right. Being exactly. Being like unreasonable. When we're, we're supposed to be logical human beings. We know you're not supposed to get something right on the first try. It's like Neo, you know, jumping across the street, you know, from building to building. He doesn't get it on the first try, but he's still the one. And it's the same thing in creating. You shouldn't be surprised or upset when you get it wrong on the first try. You should be like, well, yeah, that's supposed to happen.

Now I can do a second try.

And then this, that's why I had to write this whole mindset part before the how to part because I realized there's all this thinking that needs to be thrown out and dismantled. You know, the. I guess the thinking we got from going from 98% creative geniuses to 2% that thinking needed to be rewritten. Yeah. What do you guys do when you're starting a new writing project? What are some of the first steps you take?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's, I think, a part later in the book about looking forward and looking down. And you have. We've kind of stereotyped them into left brain, right brain people, or the. The suits. And the creatives. And the suits are really good at the planning, and the creatives are really good at the creating, but, you know, they have no idea how to control their life. And it's just, you know, a chaotic spiral. And I think what you're. What you just said kind of reminded me of how, you know, there's a time and place to look forward in terms of like, okay, what do I need to do next? Or these are the three or seven things that are happening. But then look down and this is the only thing that matters right now. So, like, for you, it's putting together this course or even this one lesson. And when you're able to oscillate between the two, that is when you become quite powerful because most people do have a tendency toward one or the other.

Yeah. And as you're saying this, I could see listeners kind of thinking, wow, that's a whole lot of stuff to think about. But as you do it, it really does become second nature, you know, like, I mean, I can't imagine the things going through, you know, professional basketball players head, for example, on like, positioning and, you know, dribbling and where they are and where their teammates are. But it all. There's so many things happening simultaneously that you just kind of assimilate well.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Well said. And it's about, I think, you know, recognizing that's a possibility and then working toward it.

For example, I am. I am terrible at music. And, you know, one of my best friends is a musician and a music teacher, and we'll be riding in the car, and he'll be like, you hear that beat? You hear that, dude, did you hear that? Or that? You hear that riff, man? No, I didn't. I cannot. And he'll play it over. I'm like, dude, I can't hear it. I hear music as a single unit. I cannot separate it, and I'm okay with that. I think my friend is, you know, Chris needs to chill a little bit. If he's listening, he'll laugh. But it's something that, you know, I can speak to about how I can do it so well with posters because I realize how terrible I am at music and how, you know, one is such an asset and a skill that had to be developed, and the other is, you know, something I'm choosing not to develop.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's been a few things over the years. One that sticks out is this was totally out of the blue. One day, there's a box shipped to me, my name on it. I opened it up, and I was so confused. It looked like a box of dirty confidants. And I'm just like, what the heck is this?

Like, yeah. Is this serious? Is there something I'm missing? It was like, not, you know, not well packed. So the. It was just a mess inside this box. So I was like, okay. I called someone over as I picked up the first one, and I opened it and there was just a ton of writing. And then I was like, you know, what the hell's going on? I picked up the next one. Same thing, just mad scribbles. And, you know, I started to get a little freaked out. Like, does someone send me their journals? Is this, like some really twisted. Yeah, something. This is like the beginning of a bad movie.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, it's like. It's in Joey. It's like a John Johnny.

it's like somebody doing something creepy. So. Because I read it and it was. It didn't make sense. It finally pulled all these books out, these confidant notebooks out, and I got to the bottom and there was a note. It turns out it was a dozen confidants that were handwritten because this person wrote their third novel in these books.

And sent it to me. The originals. Yeah. I was. I was shocked. I got. I was. All of a sudden, I got nervous. I'm like, how? I can't believe this. This is so precious. You know, why are they giving this to me? We still have it. And, you know, eventually they sent the finished book. And that really took me back because there's one thing to see things on Instagram or, you know, through an email. And there's another to have someone ship you, you know, like, two years of writing and it be handwritten. It's just shocking to me.

It was a beautiful experience, though. That was a good question. That's very cool.

Absolutely. So I told you, I took notes for 10 years. That was primarily in Apple Notes. Ten years ago, things were very different. It was easy to sync that to the cloud, and it was safe. And that that Apple Note probably spanned over, you know, four, four or five phones or something. And when my wife had said, it's time to write a book, I took those Notes. And within a day, I had converted it into an organized database in Notion.

Love Notion. And I used. And I had the table of contents, you know, set up from all of these lessons. There was a lot of redundant stuff that I had written down over the years, which was great. That means I knew, you know, it was definitely something I wanted to write. And so Notion. I essentially organized the manuscript in Notion and then each database line. Is this the kind of granularity you're okay with, or should.

Okay. Okay.

So, you know, I had. Each database line was essentially a page in and of itself. And then in those pages, I had to do lists or to dos, whatever you want to call them. Checkable boxes, let's call them, because they're not to do's. And every bit of research that I did and every idea that I had for that chapter was a to do.

And so I was just. Instead of bullets, I was checking things off as I was writing and reorganizing it as Notion is awesome for that. And I was just burning through this book chapter by chapter, because I had prepared so well in Notion, you know, had enabled me to be so clear with my thoughts. I don't think I could have written this book as fast as I did pre Notion.

But.

I did the actual writing. I tried Scrivener. It was a little too much that I didn't need. So I ended up using Ulysses. You guys. Ulysses?

Oh, I love Ulysses. And I wrote the whole book in that, actually. On my iPad, surprisingly enough.

I was shocked. But it just came together.

So the laws came first. The idea of the laws. I didn't necessarily write the laws. They. I just wrote the law when I got to the chapter. But I knew what the law was, and I had more or less named all of them up front. So then there was an interesting experience that happened as I was. I assigned stories up front. Front or I did the best I Could. And so I had three different experiences as I was doing this. There was like the first third, second, and then the last third. So the first third, I had a, you know, 30 plus years of interesting stories stored in the back of my head. And I was assigning stories to laws left and right. Like, you know, I was like, man, this is going to be easy. So I got about 15 stories done, 12 to 15 very quickly. Then for the next third, it changed. Now I had to go out and find stories. So I would just read, look up stuff, talk to people, do all sorts of info gathering, and I'd find interesting stories. And there were still enough available laws that I could generally say, oh, this fits with this law very well. And I would toss it over here, toss it over there.

The interesting and the most challenging part was part three was only about 10 laws left where I reached a tipping point. And now I had to find law stories that specifically exampled the few laws that were left. And that was challenging. That was. I mean, I. There was like, when I was down to like two or three, I was asking everybody like, dude, what is a, you know, a great story to illustrate discipline? And I mean, it was a whole thing.

It was a different experience as I went through.

Yeah, I ended up having four editors. They kind of had various jobs. You know, there was a manager editor and then a marketing editor who is the magnetism of my words, you know, titles and laws and stuff, which was interesting in and of itself. And then the developmental. In the copy editor and the developmental editor. There were a few times where they were like, this story doesn't work, or how you're telling this story does not work. I'm not getting it. And that was tough. But, you know, I just pushed through.

Like there. There's one chapter about Sal Khan from Khan Academy.

One of the last ones in the second part about the process.

And I knew in my head what I wanted to example, but I could not for the life of me convey it right in a story. And everyone was telling me to ditch it and ditch it and just find something else. And I was determined. It's the one story that I hung onto where I said, I'm going to use this story. This one means a lot to me. You know, Khan Academy is something I love. And I was able to finally find just a couple of quotes that supported what I knew he had been experiencing and what he kind of, you know, all the stories that I read about him, etc. So that was a challenge. But anyway, yeah, it was.

Exactly. Yeah, it was good enough.

Yeah, it was. I remember hunting for them back in the beginning of the writing process, and it was so cool to encounter a story because there was like an instant pang of joy where I was like, oh, my gosh, this is the. And the one you mentioned was Lonnie Johnson. He was like, you know, jet propulsion lab, you know, mechanical and electrical engineer. And then the dude was making this thing in his bathroom, and all of a sudden he was like, I'm going to make a toy. And it just risked everything he had done up until that to make it happen.

Well, I'll start by saying that the confidant notebook opens flat. That was our big thing back in 2013, and we patented a certain approach to bookbinding to make that happen. And we've had to update it over the years. And so when we were making these books, we were just like, hey, let's just convert that into a notebook that has stuff on it. And then now it's a book, you know, when you print on it. Essentially, that was the initial challenge for us. And we did change the dimensions in your last episode, I think Andy mentioned that he was. It was like it's almost the size of a company. It doesn't quite match. Was it going to.

that size and for some reason it just felt like a little too small. And it already. Even in the larger size, it already is smaller than your average hardcover by a noticeable amount. Some of those, like most of them are large because as I learned, the larger the book, the more people, more money people will spend for it and the more space it takes up on a shelf. So all the advice I got was make your book really big. And I was like, I don't like big books. I'm not making a big book. And, you know, sales be damned. Like, I want to make a beautiful object that I like to hold and not this big unwieldy thing that I don't want to carry around. So to start, the book on the outside has soft touch, which is such a wonderful thing to hold in the COVID design. For those of you out there who can't look at it, I'm sure it'll be in the show notes on how to go check it out. But it's essentially a purple cover with the laws of creativity really big on the front. And then some notes that were actually my notes in sketching the COVID itself.

And one of the interesting things was in production, this was driving me nuts. So Adobe Illustrator had released this brand new ray traced 3D letters. You guys familiar with this?

It's like 3D letters. But are you familiar with ray tracing itself, the concept?

Yeah, ray tracing, I mean, the first I really encountered it was in video games, but essentially it's simulating light. So in video games, normally artists have to like place lighting and fake it. But in with ray tracing, you actually just place a light bulb and the light bulb casts accurate light. And so Adobe Illustrator integrated this where if you made 3D text and you placed the light source, it would cast light correctly. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is so cool. There are id, you know, the light bulb above your head is such a symbol of having an idea. So what if there was a light bulb above the book, but it's off the book cover, but it's casting a Shadow on the 3D text, there's a light bulb. You just don't see it. I was all about this concept. So I tried to make this 3D text and I did successfully however, in book printing in Nor normally you produce using pantone colors. So pantones are, you know, it's not like dmyk, cyan, magenta, yellow, black, where you have four colors that make the whole spectrum, but rather you choose a few colors which also known as spot colors and like, let's say, you know, purple and yellow. And so instead of using those four colors, the cmyk I'm using two colors. Yeah, specifically yellow and specifically purple. And it costs less to produce and the color looks more vivid because it's not a combination of colors to make the color you're looking for. Am I too technical here or are you guys.

Oh, you're gonna be with me.

Okay. So great. So I took it to the master of all things print. It's a gentleman named Adam Waller. And Adam got on. I had never met him before. Someone introduced me to him, got on the phone, dude spent like an hour and a half walking me through how to take this ray traced image and convert it into pantone and essentially take what is a gradated image that has a bunch, you know, CMYK or RGB and turn it into just a single color. And we did all this stuff, this experimentation and he was so gracious and he tried so many ways. I have never seen someone wield Photoshop the way he did. Absolutely mesmerizing.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm all about Illustrator InDesign, XD, Photoshop I use as a necessity.

So anyway, it was appreciative so much of Adam's, Adam Moller's help. But we kind of got blocked at the last second and so I had to print this thing in CMYK and I was bummed. I mean I was bummed because I, I was like, it's not going to come out as vivid. Well, we passed this over to production and they, you know, Jay was well aware of my sadness about how vivid it would not be and somehow I don't know what they did, but this CMYK book cover is as rich as any pantone. I've.

Well, that was my hope when I designed the spot onto the face, the letter faces. I was like, man, maybe this will pull it out forward. But it turned out I was ready to be disappointed when I opened the box and I was shocked.

So it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn, but I'm really tooting production's horn. They nailed this a couple.

Yeah. Yeah.

I wasn't going to do that originally and my wife Ariana was like, what are you, an idiot? I think she literally said, she's like, you better put that in there, obviously. What the hell are you thinking? And I was like, oh no, got to listen to that. She knows what she's doing. And she was right. I mean, it's. I can't imagine this book now without the little ribbon sticking out at the bottom.

Love it. This was last. I'll. I guess I'll add is I think this. I forget the exact number, but I want to say this was like cover 95 or something.

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking that it's. There was a lot of crap.

Yeah. I would really love to make a Squire. I, you know, I don't know what to put on it at the moment.

I designed some of the other companion products with a Squire in mind. So I made sure there was always like a little symbol somewhere that could be the bridge between the two things. Yeah. And with this, it was just too contrived, so I left it off. So I'm kind of curious as to how we'll manifesto walls of creativity.

How do you feel about that hyphen right there?

Yeah.

Well, I'm glad because that hyphen made me some enemies. Seriously. People were like, this is the stupidest thing you've ever done. You can't do that. Nobody does that.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing.

These days you have to design for thumbnail size, you know, like on. On your Apple Books or your Amazon. And because the Create the word creativity is so big, the text, it was forcing the whole title to be small. So I had to, you know, come up with a creative way to. To solve that. And, you know, lo and behold, I just made it huge. And it broke at after the I. And that was the answer.

Debbie, yeah. She is on the back of the book. So I assume one day she'll be, you know, she'll invite me on the show did.

Did she sign it?

Oh, super cool.

Yeah. What's next? Well, I do want to turn this into a keynote speech, and I've been messing around with that already. That is like, is it the whole book or is it part one and two and three are all their own things. Maybe a combination because it's fun. It's like a performative aspect to the whole deal that I enjoy is getting up in front of people and joking around, being an idiot and conveying some information is just.

Yeah, I would love to do that. Especially, like, foundational. The foundational laws and having people come away with a. Like a creative epiphany, sort of. That would be really fun. That would be a good challenge.

As. As far as SQL goes. Oh, my goodness. I still think I'm going to have to kind of let readers guide me. Like, I was talking to an author recently who said, you know, he wrote a book and then he said his sequel came from the same question everybody kept asking him after the book was like, okay, you told me this, but what about this? And so I'm curious and what kind of question I'll repeatedly get after this book. You guys got any suggestions?

Maybe it's a novel. The laws of creativity. The laws of destruction. That'd be awesome.

Well, first, thank you, guys. I appreciate the invite. It's fun to touch base every few years and also watch what you guys are up to and check it out. It's really neat.

Yeah. What year was that?

Wow.

I still have one on my desk, I think.

That's awesome.

But that was really fun.

I love that. That's neat.

So do you have an experiment?

I didn't get the Alphabet either.

I am so upset. I have four experiments and no alphabets.

Yeah, my DMs are open, man. You know, best offer wins. As far as things that I wanted to mention. No, I'm good. You guys have asked me, you know, I have been doing all these interviews for this and all sorts of types of people and questions and a lot of stuff I've repeated. Yeah, but you guys have come at this with such a fresh set of questions and interests that really, this whole thing has been refreshing too. So, yeah, thank you guys for that. That's nice amidst all this to have a fresh conversation. I appreciate it.

Oh, that is a good question. So the book comes out October 18th and if you happen to be in New York City, you can go to McNally Jackson 13. But if not, check it out@joeycophone.com book and you'll be able to buy it physically ebook, whatever you want. Or you could hop on over to Baron figaronfig.com and of course I would be remiss if I did not say hello on Instagram and Twitter oecaphone.

Sweet.

Well, I'm honored to be a part of it. Thank you for reading both of you guys.